IMR - CEP-B


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This is a reproduction of a long chain of posts that discussed IMR, what it offers and its benefits. For those who want to really understand IMR, do read this (which is a bit long!).

Weblinks in the post are to the BIC Yahoo groups discussion forum. You will need to be registered on the BIC Yahoo groups to view the actual post. Contact Us if you would like to be on the discussion forum.



Posted on 14 Sep, 2012.

This is (bit) of a long post. Read at your own risk and profit :).

First and foremost, my thanks to all who contributed to this post. It was very insightful for me to read the varied opinions regarding IMR. I'll present my thoughts and responses and I welcome anyone to comment on the same.

I think a good perspective was from Prashanth.
Below is what Prashanth said (summarised): 

<< The problem is not 500 bucks IMO. We see 500 not as a investment but as a expense. There in starts the first problem. Since the output is not physical, our mind cannot approach the problem like any other.

Think about this, you go to a Pizza Hut you know that your Billing will be in hundreds and your mind accepts the same, but if you go into a Darshini and are ready to spend not more than a 100 bucks (50 in my case :) ). Either way, the mind tries to tangent itself to figures which it feels is justified / justifiable. 

The problem here is that the mind is unable to compare the cost to any other thing and hence we feel it as Expensive or Cheap. But interestingly, when we lose money in markets, this does not work since the mind offers another way out - comparing to something worse and consoling oneself that we have actually done better.

If you are a trader / short term investor, the primary question here should not be Price you pay but whether it meets your Objective. If via this IMR you are able to make just one profitable trade, chances are that you will more than recover.  >>

Thank you so much Prashanth for this.
Please see Surya's comments below on IMR price vs profitable trades.


What is the IMR?  What does IMR offer?


If there is no value, then even 10 rupees for the IMR is too expensive. I think answering these two questions would help.
So lets dive in ...


But first, let us be clear what IMR is NOT:

1.  IMR is NOT designed to be a Calls service!
2.  IMR does NOT give specific to the rupee (paisa) entry and exits for stocks.


What IMR IS ...



Practical, Actionable & Interactive:
IMR is an interactive session to ACTIVELY & PRACTICALLY demonstrate how the Body-of-Knowledge about the Markets (delivered in various BIC Courses) can be implemented on an ongoing, continuously profitable basis.


Integrated, Holistic Real-Time Analysis:

IMR demonstrates in real time HOW to CONNECT THE DOTS to arrive at a HOLISTIC view on a security. IMR focuses on what is CURRENT in the Markets and thus PRACTICALLY shows how Events, News, Data, Psychology, Politics, Weather, Policy & much else interact. How the Markets DISCOUNT these various discrete but connected pieces of information and arrive at a Price.


Result Oriented:

BIC's focus is ALWAYS on the practical,
actionable end.
IMR is the sharp end of this approach.

IMRs will have meaning only IF participants can (after adhering to the above approach), arrive at high probability profitable trades / positions. Thus, specific LEVELS for trades ARE mentioned. However, they are NOT recommendations but logical outcomes of the structured analysis.


Learning to Fish:

IMR is about participants being able to do all the above and then go fish in the Markets themselves.

This always takes time but for those who persist, the results (profits!) do come.
Attend a few IMR's back-to-back and only then you will get a sense of the bigger picture & process. (Remember, each IMR will focus only on what is relevant at that point in time so attending only one does not give you the full experience of what IMR overall does).


Customised & Individual Specific:

Which positions a participant may take is entirely up to individual participants. What works for each is a function of each person's unique circumstances, risk profiles, knowledge & experience in the markets. In addition, availability of time, funds and much more are important issues.
IMR encourages this very important analysis by often offering different perspectives for the same stock for different time scales and risk profiles.

It is up to each participant to decide what is best in his / her interest and decide which trades they should participate in and which they should ignore.

For example:
It is perfectly okay to have what look like diametrically opposite views on the same stock. It can be a Short in the days ahead but a long for the months. Another stock may be Long for a few days but a clear Short for many weeks. It maybe unwise to take a position for a stock in F&O but perfectly okay to do so in Spot. The opposite can & does also apply.
On several occasions, it has happened that different participants (in the IMR) had opposite positions and BOTH have made money. (The opposite, i.e. losses also happen !!)


At the core, IMR's Key Goal is to encourage each one of us to:

1.  Understand ONE'S OWN CIRCUMSTANCES,
2.  The Markets and possible outcomes and ...
3.  THEN take a position that is appropriate to YOU.




IMR's Results ...
It would be fruitful to view IMR's results in two separate areas: (i)
Knowledge & Expertise Value of IMRs and (ii) Profit & Loss from IMRs:


1.  Knowledge & Expertise Value of IMRs.


Santosh says:

I graduated from knowing theory / concepts to applying it after attending IMRs for over a long period of time. In a way the reason for me not being a regular to IMRs now is IMR itself :-) Over a period of time, I was able to analyze markets independently and initiate trades (without attending IMRs).

I also strongly recommend attending IMRs regularly / continuously so that you have continuity i.e. you can see if we had a follow through of what was analyzed / identified in the previous week or if there was a change in view due to any macro / technical developments during the week. IMRs may give entry, exit and stop loss values but these values may change due to unforeseen developments during the week. An individual has to adjust to accordingly by reviewing the trades on a regular basis (I usually review daily end of day) to maximize the returns. This can be achieved only if we understand the rationale behind trades otherwise it will be another tips / tricks program.


Ram says:

Basically, this course is meant to be an educational sort of session where we discuss various aspects like the general state of markets (local & international), news flow coming in, then look at the sector indices and then concentrate on certain stocks - whether it be nifty or junior or themed. Technical Analysis concepts are applied while discussing the stock and applying chart patterns, couple of indicators, some values are arrived at as places where one could take a position. Basically this is to fine tune your skills related to TA or get you introduced to it.

When it comes to execution, i am afraid Dr. Musa or anyone cannot help here because it is up to the individual to do it.  :)  I
have made profit from the calls we arrive at during the IMR's and also on the calls i have made using the knowledge i get from the sessions. There have been times when i have been in red as well. We arrive at entry & exit points to the stock but if we remain mute and do not take action, we cannot profit from it.


Jayashree says:

The IMRs that are conducted are so very different from the services offered by others coz here we do not get just `buy at x sell at y' calls. This is a deeper venture where we are trying to improve our knowledge and gain confidence. Dr. Musa helps us understand what he sees in the chart that makes him give a call on a stock. I think that is very very valuable information.

By the way, if you are one of the old timers in BIC and have attended these IMR sessions before, then maybe you should try attending one of them now. One member of 3-4 years (who's doing the Technical Indicators course with us now) had mentioned that the IMR sessions are very different from what they were when he used to attend 3 years back. And he has now started to attend them again (and is making money too!!). So give it a try. It has been a fun learning experience for me…well worth the 500 bucks I pay for it each week.


 
2.  Profit & Loss from IMRs:


Surya says:

I went through the "too high a cost for participation phase" before getting to the IMR. With the very same opinion, along with my friend, I went ahead and subscribed for a TIPS service from one of the Securities company from Bangalore for a month by paying Rs 7500/- and a fee of Rs 17000/- to the market (loss !!) by following those
calls.

Then I realized IMR, @ Rs 500/- per week, is very very cheap compared to my earlier experience in terms of the subscription. And about the value we can get out of it. Probably you must have seen some of the posts requesting for annual subscription. Hope you understand why. Market paid us that annual subscription fee in a week.
If you feel convinced, please join the IMR, so that we all can have the collective happiness -:)

(Musa: Actually: Surya used the IMR the way it should be used and he made his profits. Partial credit to IMR. Full credit to Surya.)



Santosh says:

I continue to make about 10k (I usually trade with one or two futures/options lot at a time) during the months when I am actively trading. I do attend IMRs even now but occasionally to cross check my views and of course

 
"Though we hear questions about the costs of IMR regularly I have never heard people questioning the trades identified or reporting losses due to IMR calls. That in a way answers doubts (if any) over IMR's price, profitability & usefullness.

Musa:
There are quite a few others who participate in the IMR regularly who ARE making a decent - good amount of profits consistently. It certainly ranges in the average of a few thousands per week. Then there are always those bumper trades where you get tens of thousands in a few days. I can state the above with confidence because I get quit a few private e-mails with results, queries etc. (If the senders of the private mails give me permission, I can reproduce the same here. You know who you are :))

I fully endorse Santosh's view:  "I think we (attendees) should be open about the trades that go wrong and create an email thread for such cases and have a constructive discussion to determine the cause of the failed trade so that we learn from it and take care of it in future."



Sumanth says:

I do not know of anyone (else) who Analyzes the Market & Exlpains the Rationale behind the calls. I think that's a big plus!

If you are just stepping in to the markets, it's tough to value the programs @ BIC. If you have been in the markets for a few years (experienced the highs & lows), tried to get in to insights ... that's when you will aprreciate this forum ... I bet you will enrol for all the courses being conducted (my experience :P) !!!
 
My association with BIC started in 2010 & am currently doing technical indicators course. We have quite a few week day classes.. Most participants prioritzing the course & attending on weekdays should answer quite a few other questions that have not been asked yet :D



Coming to IMR's Price
(finally?) ...


I guess this is the issue that (all said and done) can be the make or break. Like in any "Service" there is no one correct price of a service such as IMR. Let me just offer my point of view on IMR's price  (and please note, its just my opinion) ...

IMR is a lot of things all rolled into one: It is very educational, insightful, live, hand's-on, current and has a high profit potential.

  IMRdid not become like this overnight. Quite frankly it has been a struggle on lots of fronts: What should / should not IMR discuss? What is important, what is not? What technology to use? How to ensure that it can be delivered consistently? What timings are suitable? How long should it be? What will it cost to deliver? What does it cost to prepare?

A lot of experimenting, disasters and successes, many many very long hours and nights. It has been stopped at least on few occasions but has so far survived, always evolving into something better, mostly due to lessons learned and inputs from the few regular participants of IMR. It's all the above (and much more) that has made IMR what it is.

What are the costs of this? What is the fair price? Should one just look at a Cost Plus approach? Can you really do that in a pure service? What is the Price / Value of Intellectual Capital?

There are never easy & fair answers to these questions. Everyone is entitled to their view on this. So I have take the following approach, I have looked at three aspects to arrive at the Price:

1.  IMR's Value Proposition (both Educational & Profit wise).
2.  Costs of producing, archiving it (not just in Dollar terms, but time, effort, preparation, follow up and more).
3.  Affordability.

Based on the above, the price is what it is. At any price some will find it cheap, some expensive, some fair and it goes on and on.
For now there will be no changes in the price of IMR. There have been suggestions on Monthly & Annual Subscriptions but I honestly think that will happen after resolving some lingering issues.

There are still some technical glitches to iron out. (Eg: In the archived IMRs, you will not see the parallel
interactive chat discussion that goes on a Group Chat over Yahoo Messenger). We need to build competencies to deliver & leverage the IMR for superior results (attendees know the specifics of what I am talking about). And there needs to be  greater traction & participation in IMRs. Once these issues get resolved, we will have a far more stable & valuable offering.

I am confident that will happen over time, God Willing. I am sure the price then will be different (from what it is now) with maybe Monthly, Quarterly & Annual Discounted Rates. Till then its Work-in-Progress, one week at a time.

It's been a long post, maybe a rant for some, maybe insightful for others. So l end by saying
:

IMR is BIC's CEP-B **
** Continuing Education Programme with Benefits.
   and Benefits means: Likely Large Net Profits.


What is IMR's Value (Education, Profit & otherwise) to YOU?
Is the Price-Value proposition attractive?
Only YOU can decide.


Welcome to IMR !
Welcome to BIC !

Thank you for your patient reading.

Thoughts, Feelings & Suggestions Welcomed & Solicited.
Wishes n Riches,

Yours truly,
musa